Manchester – The Middle East, Israel and Palestine – is there a solution?
An evening spent discussing the situation in the Middle East from the perspective of Israeli and British Jews.
On Tuesday 27th August, Politics in Pubs Manchester met at the Welcome Inn, Bury Old Road, Whitefield, Manchester M45 6TA. See here for location.
Our discussion was introduced by Stephen, Daniel and Motty. The three friends are Jewish. Stephen and Daniel were born in Britain and live here in Manchester. Motty was born and grew up in Israel, served in the Israel Defence Force, and has lived in Britain for many years. They shared their views on Israel and Palestine and also on what it means to be Jewish.
Introduction
Stephen began by describing a conversation he had with Riyad Mansour, the United Nations representative for Palestine speaking at an Oxford University debate in 2020. Mansour’s perception of Middle Eastern history was that Jews and Palestinians had always lived harmoniously in the region until the creation of Israel spoilt it. He did not know that Stephen was Jewish. When Stephen suggested that Palestinian and Israeli leaders put the past history behind them and get their heads to gather to find a solution, Mansour replied that Palestinian leaders would be seen as traitors by their people. Stephen believes that this point of view helps to maintain the problems rather than finding solutions.
Racism – The Blood Libels
Stephen’s view is that there is a double standard in how racism against Jews is perceived.
The United Nations talks about equality and self-determination being integral to basic human rights and fundamental freedoms – such as the right of people to determine, with no compulsion or coercion, their own future, political status and independence – being essential for the elimination of racism and intolerance.
However, Stephen believes that an Anti-Zionist exception is made for Jews and that this double standard is a form of racism. This is demonstrated by the four blood libels which are still prevalent now:
- Zionism is a colonial endeavour – The region has been subject to colonialism for centuries, for example by the Ottoman Empire but in any case, Jews lived in the region for thousands of years.
- Ethnic cleansing of Muslims by Jews – When Israel was formed in 1948 the UN voted for a two state solution. However, Arab nations immediately attacked Israel (and were defeated) whilst 850,000 Jews had to leave or were expelled from neighbouring Arab countries. Two million Arabs live in Israel.
- Apartheid – 20% of the Israeli population are Arabs with equal rights (including gay rights) and serve in senior echelons of the government, the judiciary and the army. At various times 20-40,000 Palestinians were working in Israel. This is not mirrored in the population of Palestine.
- Genocide – The 7th October 2023 attacks were the latest though worst genocidal attacks since The Holocaust. No-one can answer the question What would happen to 7 million Jews if Israel were gone?
Motty added an explanation of the chant often heard on pro-Palestine marches in Britain. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is a call from terrorist groups like Hamas to destroy the state of Israel – from the river Jordan to the Mediterranean – without compromise.
What is Zionism?
Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing. Judaism is the main religion of the Jewish nation but religious faith is not a requirement for Jews – atheists can be Jewish in the same way that atheists can be British. Religious identity and national identity are separate. Zionism means support for the Jewish state and its right to self-determination and is an expression of national identity. It is an ideal, not a political construct. Most Jews support the Zionist ideal.
Is there a solution?
Stephen emphasised how he tries to concentrate on the historical facts leading up to today’s situation. For example, in 1947, the area known as Palestine was much bigger than it is now, including Jordan for example (Arabs in Jordan were also Palestinians). This is a huge area with enough room for everyone to live. Israel is a tiny country about the size of Wales. A couple of surprising facts: in 1840 there was a Jewish majority in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv was created in 1909, both pre-dating the creation of Israel by many years.
While some Israelis have extreme views about who should live where, most are sensible and moderate. Stephen believes that there is more extremism in Palestine but that it should still be possible for Israel and Palestine to divide up the land fairly. Jordan could probably help its neighbours to reach such a solution but is not minded to. Stephen believes that the banging of Middle Eastern heads together might be called for.
Motty explained that Israel has peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan which proves it is possible to reach solutions if there is the will. Unfortunately the stance of Hamas is fractured and Arab leaders do not have enough authority over it to accept a peace settlement with Israel. In Israel’s early days as a fledgling state, Arab armies were sent to crush it. Although the West Bank is regarded as the heart of the Jewish nation (disputed by Palestinians and internationally) it has never been annexed by Israel. During peace negotiations, Arafat was offered 96% of the West Bank and 4% of Israeli land but in the end he refused to settle for fear of being shot by a Palestinian extremist. There is currently no solution on the horizon.
Discussion, questions and responses
The following Questions (Q) and Responses (R) were noted:
Q. There seem to be tensions within Zionism which see criticism as hatred. Should people be able to criticise it without being seen as anti-semitic?
R. Zionism is an ideal which supports the right of Jews to have a national identity and a homeland. The proportional representation electoral system and coalition governments in Israel are not always helpful in striving towards that ideal.
Q. There have been many pro-Palestine marches in the UK since 7th October 2023. Why has the Palestinian cause become such a high profile issue here?
R. One tactic has been to create an inverted reality about where the sympathies of the politically ‘left’ should lie. In terms of traditionally ‘left’ causes such as protecting minorities, it is Israel which promotes equality for people who, for example, are gay or bi-sexual. This is not the case in Palestine. Yet those on the ‘left’ seem to have embarked upon a pro-Palestinian crusade as though it is a badge of honour. The influence of universities has lacked intellectual scrutiny. It seems that people have been easily persuaded.
Q. If re-elected would President Trump’s pro-Israel stance be helpful in finding a solution?
R. Trump is a bit like a bull in a china shop but some may think he would be willing to stand up to Arab leaders. Though Biden is considered to have been supportive of Israel.
Q. Over the years, there have been four occasions which would have provided Palestine with its own state but it was declined by its leaders each time. Why – is the dispute about land or not? Or is the real problem seen as having Jews on what some see as ‘Arab land’?
R. Perhaps – in the 1920s and 1930s Jews were denied entry to Palestine while others came to live there and were accepted, including Jordanians.
Q. Land disputes over the West Bank have been going on for 200 years. The Bible is seen as providing justification for Jewish entitlement to the land. But different people controlled the land prior to the time of the Bible. There is more than one claim to the land but the politics of Zionism has created an ever greater ambition for Israel. The rights and freedom of a people end when they infringe the rights and freedom of others. There should be an embargo on arms to the region and an end to the land grab. If a two state solution is impossible, what’s the alternative? Media coverage is biased. The conflict is not really about Israel and Palestine but about oil, gas and global power.
R. Geo-political power is definitely at play including a global jihad and the threat to Western governments from Iranian leaders wishing to impose their religious and political beliefs upon the West. Iran is supplying weapons to Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houtis. The West is helping Israel to defend itself in order to counter the prospect of an Islamic Caliphate. There are only 14.5 million Jews and half of them live in Israel: Israel cannot afford to lose a war – its survival depends on self-defence. There have always been Jews in the region – along the coast, in Jerusalem and Gallilee. From the eighteenth century more Jews adopted the Zionist ideal of a Jewish homeland, supported in 1947 by 146 members of the United Nations. The Bible is considered by Jews to be an accurate record of history with no dispute about where the rightful Jewish homeland should be.
Q. Is it true that Netanyahu financially supported Hamas for many years?
R. Yes – he assumed that if money was allowed into Palestine for state employees, its people would be more focused upon earning money and less interested in war against Israel. But instead, the money was used to build tunnels for Hamas.
Q. Why does Palestine use rockets against Israel when Israel is so well defended? Why does Western media seem to gives its backing to Palestine?
R. Media reporting has certainly been a issue e.g the BBC not calling out Hamas as terrorists. The rockets are used as a decoy to distract Israeli defences from other attacks.
Q. A two state solution is not possible when one side teaches its children that to kill a Jew is a good thing. Iran is the main problem yet when he was president , Obama propped up Iran. American Jews don’t see that Trump could have stopped the October attack from happening. Supporting the left instead of supporting Trump is a self-defeating policy – how does it make sense to Jewish people?
R. Jews are traditionally liberal and left wing.
Q. There has been a long march of the left in British institutions which has changed attitudes towards Israel and the Middle East. More should be taught about region’s long history.
R. There are many books on the subject which can help people to become aware of the various narratives. However, most books are written from one perspective or another.
Q. The geography of the region lends itself to borders and protection of the state of Israel. Wouldn’t it be very difficult for Israel to give up the security element of the West Bank?
R. The perspective in Israel is that 1200 people were slaughtered on 7th October 2023. This has damaged Israel’s perception of a two state solution. They feel that the 2.5 million people living in Gaza are focussed on the destruction of Israel. They are unwilling to compromise.
Q. What are the risks of Israel being pressured into a ceasefire – would Hezbollah and Hamas see Israel as weak? What are the implications for the security of other Western countries against hostility if Israel’s right to defend itself is curtailed by the international community?
R. Hamas has created hundreds of tunnels under Gaza, underneath its schools, mosques and hospitals. These are more extensive than the London Underground which demonstrate where much of the “aid” for Gaza has been channelled. Israel would require Hamas to move out of the tunnels. Hamas uses Palestinian citizens as human shields. The IDF takes great care to limit civilian casualties. Hamas’s strategy is to get Israel to cease defending itself. Where is the moral integrity? What do the anti-zionists think would happen to Jews if they were removed from Israel?
Q. Didn’t Netanyahu state that maintaining control of Gaza required supporting Hamas?
A. Yes he did and it was a huge error (and disputed policy) which he will pay for at the end of this current situation.
Further reading
ISRAEL Pocket Facts written by the StandWithUs organisation.
The Case for Israel by Alan Dershowitz.
Many thanks, Stephen, Daniel and Motty, for presenting your views on the Middle East, Israel and Palestine. As always, a big thank you to our lovely hosts at The Welcome Inn. Cheers all!
Forthcoming Events
Manchester – Comedy Unleashed, Thursday 5th September 2024 7pm (doors open at 6pm)
If you are a fan of stand-up comedy and laughter, this is the event for you. On Thursday 5th September Comedy Unleashed will be on at Impossible, 36 Peter Street, Manchester. Get your tickets here:
https://comedyunleashed.co.uk/manchester-gigs/
Sheffield – What it means to be a patriot, Thursday 5th September 2024 7pm
Please join with us in Sheffield to share your views, thoughts and beliefs on patriotism and what it means to be a patriot.
More info here.
Manchester – Cancelling Cancel Culture presents “A Prof in the Eye of the Storm: Cancel Culture in Universities’, Sunday 15th September 2024 2pm
Guest speaker David Paton is a Professor of Economics at Nottingham University. What is it like being an academic at the heart of free speech battles in UK universities? Brexit, lockdowns, pronouns and climate change will all be on the agenda in David’s talk on cancel culture and what we can all do to fight back. Cancelling Cancel Culture meets at the Briton’s Protection, 50 Great Bridgewater Street, Manchester.
Newcastle – In light of Labour’s victory, has woke won? Tuesday 17th September 2024, 7pm
An evening with author and commentator Joanna Williams. Online booking is essential as places are limited.
More info here.
Manchester – Politics in Pubs, Tuesday 24th September 2024 7.30pm
We will be delighted to welcome Professor Dennis Hayes, National Teaching Fellow, author and founder of Academics for Academic Freedom: https://www.afaf.org.uk
Academics For Academic Freedom (AFAF) was founded in late 2006 as a campaigning group for all lecturers, academic-related staff, students and researchers who wanted to defend unimpeded inquiry and expression. It began with a statement of Academic Freedom that lecturers, and others, could sign but has since taken up the case for free speech and academic freedom throughout the UK and Ireland. AFAF is also heavily involved in case work, much of which never hits the headlines.
Join us at The Welcome Inn, Bury Old Road, Whitefield, Manchester M45 6TA from 7.30pm. See here for location. Please note change of day to Tuesdays.
London – Politics in Pubs will host a stand at the Battle of Ideas, Saturday 19th and Sunday 20th October
We will be hosting a stand at the Ideas Market at this festival which will take place at Church House in Westminster. There will be a 20% discount available to Politics in Pubs members. We would love to hear from anyone thinking about starting their own group and we can explain how easy this is and what support we can provide.
We are growing!
We are expanding our activities via regional Politics in Pubs groups and have created a map where you can search for a group near you. If you live near Ilkley, Salisbury or Northampton we have members who wants to start new groups in those towns, so please let us know if this of interest. We are particularly interested in hearing from anyone in the Ilkley area of Yorkshire.
Don’t worry if you can’t find anything nearby as you can start your own group. If you would like to be put in touch with other people interested in talking about politics, please reply to this email letting us know your location and we’ll help to get the conversation started.
We have also started to grow our network with other free speech groups who have a similar interest in open discussion and debate. If you have such a group and want to appear on our map please get in touch.